| ▲ | JSR_FDED a day ago |
| 23% of items are rung up at a higher amount at the register than what it says on the shelf, yet North Carolina law caps penalties at $5,000 per inspection, offering retailers little incentive to fix the problem. In other words, regulatory capture at its finest, over the backs of the poorest in the country. |
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| ▲ | itsdrewmiller a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| It’s not regulatory capture unless the regulatory body itself is controlled by shady grocers. This is just garden variety insufficient regulation. Although if they inspected every day it would probably still be profitable for the state. |
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| ▲ | lowbloodsugar a day ago | parent [-] | | The rich own congress. At this point, it's all regulatory capture. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 a day ago | parent [-] | | While I agree, for the most part this comes under state regulations. Especially red states are always trying to cut taxes and the government at the cost of not having enough inspectors. |
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| ▲ | fencepost a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Depending on how much independence the inspectors have they could probably turn a heck of a profit per inspector (thus being able to argue their continued existence to the legislature). Could an inspector manage two per day? If you figure the full cost of each inspector is $150,000/year but dedicated ones could do 8 inspections at $5k each per week, there's well over $1 million/year per inspector (assuming not all inspections would be the full fine, there's travel costs per inspector, inspectors would have to spend some office/court time, etc. that would bring it down from the potential maximum of ~$1,800,000 each factoring in vacation and holidays). Even Republicans could get behind it! "We're reducing the direct budget of the department, but authorizing it to hire additional inspectors in order to bring in additional revenue that can be utilized to bring the budget to or above its current levels." It's a cost reduction measure! |
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| ▲ | bux93 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There's precedent for this; the Federal False Claims Act lets you sue on behalf of the government if you spot someone defrauding a federal program (in this case, perhaps if they take SNAP?). If your suit is succesful you get 15%-30% of the recovery for your troubles. There are "private attorney general" rules on the books at a state level too. I think it's kind of elegant, we can all see that inspections are understaffed, but non-compliance is often not that hard to spot and document. I'd propost that employees should have some whistleblower protection (and relief from NDAs and such) for building dossiers with supporting documentation of criminal fraud. These provision are called "qui tam" from "qui tam pro domino rege quam pro se ipso in hac parte sequitur", or “who sues in this matter both for the king and for himself.” I think they suit well with the US's history of bounty hunting, much like class action suits. | |
| ▲ | thfuran 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Even Republicans could get behind it! No, they have no actual interest in saving the government money, especially if it comes at the cost of enforcing regulations on corporations. |
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| ▲ | gessha a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What this calls for is an Amazon-style optimization of inspections. Given X inspectors and Y locations, what is the most optimal routing to optimize for coverage and penalty collection? |
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| ▲ | terminalshort a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Better optimization would be to make everybody an inspector. You catch a store doing it on video and report it to the agency, you get 50% of the fine. | | |
| ▲ | Paradigm2020 a day ago | parent [-] | | In Australian supermarkets when the price of the item is wrong you get the item for free. (At least it was like that in 2011). Cashiers would run into the store to go fix the price tag. |
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| ▲ | mindslight a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Amazon-style optimization? You mean they send three different inspectors to the same store on the same day, each scanning one third of the necessary items for the audit? | |
| ▲ | burnt-resistor a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Offtopic, but I made the mistake once of buying groceries from Amazon and they instead sold me a package of cheddar cheese that was completely blue from mold. Some "quality" inspections they got going don't bode well for public-private "partnerships" that outsource essential government functions to a corrupt third-party that's likely to be owned by a craptastic private equity hedge fund. | | |
| ▲ | adamsb6 a day ago | parent [-] | | The error rate is nonzero, but in my experience Amazon will make it right with little friction. A short chat is almost always enough, no labyrinthine phone trees or escalations. | | |
| ▲ | rootusrootus a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Last time I had to contact Amazon the chat option was no longer anywhere to be found. I gave up and actually called. They were nice enough on the phone but it was a good reminder of how much Amazon’s customer service has degraded. | |
| ▲ | PopePompus a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, but all problems with tainted food are not as visually obvious as mold. After some bad surprises, I've decided to never eat anything I ordered from Amazon. |
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| ▲ | amarant a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Say what you will about the EU, but they figured out how to scale corporate fines correctly: max 10% of owning entities annual income. |
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| ▲ | apparent a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Seems like it actually creates an incentive to go big or go home. If you're already going to be busted and hit with the maximum fine, might as well have even larger mispricings, so you come out ahead after the fine is taken into account. |
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| ▲ | mystraline a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > yet North Carolina law caps penalties at $5,000 per inspection So, have every agent in the state inspect them. Fine 5k. Immediately inspect again, different goods. Fine another 5k. Keep doing it opening hours. Treat them like an inspection money piñata until they fix their ways. State gets a big pile of money to do better, and massive fines at 5k a pop for a few weeks punish the company and their bottom line. |
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| ▲ | phil21 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Why are we taking this whole “the $5k fine is nothing” thing at face value? A long time ago I used to help manage a couple retail stores. A $5k random expense would have put that location into the red for the month. Perhaps not the volume of a dollar store chain, but certainly not small either. I have a feeling that if the $5k fines were basically guaranteed to happen with some regularity you’d see this cleaned up pretty quickly with local management replaced ASAP if not. Enforcement doesn’t have to be over the top abusive with the goal to put a location out of business overnight. Especially in already underserved communities. Like everything to do with humans there simply needs to be consistent, reliable, and timely consequences to form a reliable and immediate feedback loop for behavior. If a store makes it an actual policy to eat these fines then the fine amount needs adjusting. From everything in this article though the problem is simply it’s worth the gamble they don’t happen at all. | | |
| ▲ | mystraline 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Why are we taking this whole “the $5k fine is nothing” thing at face value? Because the current country's idea of fines against egregious business practices mainly amounts to a 5% fine of the profit they defrauded those against. It turns a punatative action into a "cost of doing business". Look at right now with Dollar General - 25% of their goods are priced higher at register, defrauding people. And what can be done? Leave. Because many states are completely ineffectual in strongly attacking this. And although North Carolina caps inspection fines to $5k, how many times were they even inspected? And were any fines even submitted? My guess is no. |
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| ▲ | pixl97 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, more like someone elected and really high up in the state government calls the inspection office and tells them to stop, or everyone at the inspection office will get fired, since said elected person cares far more about getting reelected then the people that they should be representing. |
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| ▲ | rightbyte 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > little incentive to fix the problem. It is all these Karen memes that ruined complaining about being screwed over by corparate interests. |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | burnt-resistor a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't know NC law. Does it have an "invitation to treat" practice there where prices marked are a customer relations issue rather than a legally-binding offer? To attain change, enough people have to: 1. Correctly identify the source of their misery, because it ain't [insert scapegoats]. 2. Find others who agree with them. 3. Make a plan for effective countering of 1. 4. Use intestinal fortitude and endure temporary setbacks to achieve 3. to overcome 1. 5. Prevent 1. from ever happening again structurally, culturally, and through vigilant participation. The 0th problem is the political operating system is captured by criminals and power has centralized grotesquely in ways that defeat the fundamental function of separation of powers. All elected officials corrupted by lobbyist bribes need to face accountability and have a code of ethics and integrity, because continuing down this path is the road to ruin. |
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| ▲ | dmurray a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think the laws of the specific jurisdiction matter. In every US jurisdiction, the prices aren't completely legally binding (what if the previous customer changed the price tag?). In ~every US jurisdiction, if you systematically show one price but charge customers another, that's an offence. So intent matters. What would decide an individual case is not the exact characterisation of the laws on the books, but how sympathetic a regulator or a judge is to the supermarket's claim that these things just happen sometimes. | | |
| ▲ | mindslight a day ago | parent [-] | | If another customer changed the price tag, that would be in the same category as if a person unaffiliated with the store said "I'll give you a deal on this item for $10", then pocketed the money while you walked out with the (still not yours) item. This doesn't really have any bearing on whether the owner of a store putting up a sign with a specific price for a specific item that a customer can directly take possession of constitutes a binding offer. | | |
| ▲ | dmurray a day ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but it's in the same category as the owner putting up a sign by mistake, or omitting to update a sign by mistake. Or more realistically, an employee of the owner putting up a sign even though the owner had instructed him to put up a different sign. | | |
| ▲ | mindslight a day ago | parent [-] | | > or omitting to update a sign by mistake No, in this case the shop is legitimately offering an item for sale, and then forgetting to change the price they are offering it at. It's quite disingenuous for a shop to put up signs, and then act like those numbers aren't legally binding, while the real prices are hidden away in a database somewhere. If they want to have their database be the authoritative copy pricing information, then they can just not put up price signs to begin with. | | |
| ▲ | dmurray 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | > If they want to have their database be the authoritative copy pricing information, then they can just not put up price signs to begin with. This one really does vary by jurisdiction, but no, grocery stores generally must display prices by law. | | |
| ▲ | mindslight 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but the point of those laws is to diminish the ability for merchants to obscure prices, as a deliberate public policy goal. Such places are likely to have more proactive regulations against price discrepancies well, rather than common law "freedom". Still I can imagine a few ways for a store to post prices without being in the territory of forming binding offers - keep stock only accessible to employees, post obnoxious signs everywhere stating that the prices are for informational purposes and that no offer is implied, require membership for entry with appropriate terms, etc. Or rather than continuing to run the complexity treadmill trying to escape regulation, stores can just accept that they're bound by laws that were settled quite some time ago, and that their business includes making offers to sell items. |
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| ▲ | joshuaissac a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > NC law. Does it have an "invitation to treat" practice [...] rather than a legally-binding offer? Are there any common-law jurisdictions in the world where having products on sale in a supermarket is not generally considered invitation to treat but as an offer to sell? | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen a day ago | parent [-] | | What is an invitation to treat, and how does a store with items on the shelf not constitute an offer to sell? | | |
| ▲ | jkaplowitz a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The invitation to treat is the store inviting potential customers to treat (engage in commerce) with the store by submitting an offer to buy the displayed items at the listed price, which they usually do by bringing the items to the register or (for more specialized purchases) telling a store employee that they want to buy the item. When the buyer makes the offer, the cashier accepts the offer on behalf of the store by ringing up the purchase, and the buyer performs their end of the contract by paying the price, thereby contractually gaining ownership of their purchase. One reason it works this way is that treating displayed items as an offer to sell would leave it unclear to whom the offer to sell would be made. Clearly each item on display can only be sold to one of the many shoppers who sees it, so they can't all be offered the sale. There are several other reasons too, like different customers being offered different terms of sale based on loyalty program membership, promotions, student or senior discounts, etc. Here is the Wikipedia summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invitation_to_treat As the article says, the term in various US jurisdictions may be slightly different, like invitation to bargain, but the basic concept is the same. (I'm ignoring Louisiana entirely, which has a completely different legal tradition not derived from English common law.) | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thank you. The whole process is absurdly over-defined, but I understand why. Bad actors necessitate such wasted energy. |
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| ▲ | jimnotgym 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It comes from a UK case, Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain vs Boots Cash Chemist (southern division) from memory. If the price on the shelf were an offer to sell, then you would be contractually obliged to buy everything you picked up. The offer comes instead from when you pass it to the cashier, which is why I'm saying for the third time on this thread, if you don't like that price walk out and leave the goods at the checkout...see if they find it more fun to put all your goods back, or put the correct prices on the shelf! If a group of people did this at every till the store would be effectively closed. |
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| ▲ | estimator7292 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| America The Beautiful |
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| ▲ | progval a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Regulatory capture is when a large company encourages stronger regulations that small competitors cannot afford to satisfy. Here the issue is regulation that is too weak, not too strong. |
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| ▲ | thfuran a day ago | parent [-] | | No, that’s just one form of regulatory capture. If this legislation is a result of lobbying from retailers opposing imposing meaningful fines, particularly if the state of things before its adoption was that penalties from failed inspections were often higher, then this is regulatory capture. |
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