| ▲ | input_sh a day ago |
| I hate when switches like these get advertised first and foremost as some huge cost-cutting measure, further solidifying open source ecosystem as some cheap knock-offs of their commercial alternatives. How about instead you donate the same amount of money you would've paid to Microsoft anyways to fund open source projects you rely on? At least for one year, then drop it down to some arbitrary chosen percentage of that cost. That way you can still advertise it as a cost-cutting measure, and everyone would benefit. |
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| ▲ | hanshenning a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| You're not wrong, but this is actually what they're pursuing; the article just leaves it out. > The goal is not only to save costs, but above all to gain digital sovereignty. > [It's true] that open source is not necessarily cheaper, [..] it requires investment. But the money flows into internal infrastructure, into the further development of Nextcloud, LibreOffice, and other similar systems, instead of proprietary ones. > Schleswig-Holstein pursues an "upstream-only strategy," meaning that developments flow directly back into international projects. The state does not want to maintain its own forks, but rather contribute all improvements directly to the main projects, thereby contributing to development for the benefit of the general public.[1] On a side note, the real key to the project's success is that it's supported by a coalition of the conservative and green parties. They actually value digital sovereignty and longterm cost savings. Contrast that with Bavaria, where the MS lobbyist managed to get them to sign a longterm Office 365 contract… [1]https://www-heise-de.translate.goog/hintergrund/Interview-Wi... |
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| ▲ | k1musab1 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Thank you for providing this valuable context. I am hoping to advocate for OSS transition in my workplace and these examples go a long way to help make my case. | | |
| ▲ | kuerbel a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I am thinking about opening my own shop, distinguished by digitally sovereign offerings, for instance, Stormshield over Cisco, Proxmox over VMware, Matrix/Element over Microsoft Teams, Nextcloud over SharePoint... I've been doing m365 and azure for more than three years by now and I just feel terrible. Especially regarding some of our customers, which are small gGmbH (kind of NGO). Instead of making a secure, privacy focused offering we just sell them the usual m365 package. We basically push them into the data industrial complex just to get some collab tools and mail. | | |
| ▲ | lormayna a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Stormshield over Cisco Stormshield is a very good product but it's mainly designed for industrial scenarios and lacks some features that are essential for an enterprise NGFW (i.e. the protocol inspection covers very few protocols compared to PA/Checkpoint/etc). Unfortunately the enterprise NGFW scenario is dominated by US or Israeli companies, even if some niches brands like Stormshield for OT and Clavister for telcos are Europeans | | |
| ▲ | w34 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Stormshield firewalls offer a plethora of IPS protections and signatures, not just OT related ones. There are different licenses, offering varying protections and signatures. Stormshield firewalls can certainly be used in enterprise settings. OT environments are an added bonus where Stormshield firewalls can be used as a protective layer. Stormshield's IPS is its major strength, being very well integrated in the overall firewall design. The whole firewall rulebase is designed in terms of its IPS; I am not aware of any firewall on the market that has such a nicely integrated IPS. Also, at the point where one runs out of IPS options to configure, whereby I'm not referring to signatures in the general sense of the term, and one also has adapted all of Stormshield's available signatures to the needs of the particular environment, the real fun of creating new custom IPS signatures begins. Stormshield's roots date back to 1998's NETASQ, and so I would say they are of a similar pedigree as Check Point, in terms of their history. Disclaimer: I'm a Stormshield Platinum Partner and hold a CSNTS. |
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| ▲ | limagnolia a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What makes StormShield "digitally sovereign"? The other names you mention are open source- but from what I can tell, StormShield is not? | | |
| ▲ | w34 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | StormShield are a French company, and a subsidiary of Airbus. So I guess "digitally sovereign" in the European Union could mean using a combination of GPL style free, open source (BSD and other similar licences), proprietary European "homegrown" products. I guess Genua is another good contender in this market. |
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| ▲ | candu 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | TBH there will likely be a _huge_ demand for "digital sovereignty consulting" over the next while, especially in the EU (and maybe also Canada). Here in Denmark, the previously unthinkable is happening: because of Schleswig-Holstein's leadership in moving to OSS, the Danes are now seeking to learn from the Germans (or at least, that particular set of Germans) about digitalisation! That trend, plus the Danish government's all-in-on-vendors/consultants approach to digitalisation, will likely open a sizeable market - and the traditional vendors like Netcompany have taken a large beating in public opinion themselves, so it's a good time to start something in this direction. And at the Digital Tech Summit in Copenhagen this year, digital sovereignty (and the lack thereof) was a very prominent theme across both public and private sector talks. As was the comparative advantage the EU has in _trust_, and how that helps e.g. businesses around cybersecurity, privacy-oriented SaaS, and data management expand even outside the EU - which makes it extra infuriating to see continued political interest in things like Chat Control and cracking down on GrapheneOS. This trust is IMHO pretty much the only advantage the EU has in the global tech marketplace, and we're busy throwing it away. |
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| ▲ | cookiengineer 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Check out "Europe as a Software Colony" [1], it's an excellent documentary including about the Munich case specifically. Then watch the Scale 22x talk of the former Mexican CTO, because those stories are so close to industrial espionage it's absurd what kind of influence Microsoft has over diplomats and ambassadors. [2] [1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=duaYLW7LQvg [2] https://youtube.com/watch?v=kLSHtx3Wi_M | | |
| ▲ | cies 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Let's not forget that since Snowden we know former German Chancellor Angela Merkel was spied on by the NSA. German govt has been a bit embarrassed by this. |
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| ▲ | Terr_ a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wonder if there is some particular MBA/managerial jargon (in the sense it grabs their attention) to use when talking about this stuff. Power differences, contractual leverage, vendor lock-in, motivation versus costs to make changes, etc. | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo a day ago | parent [-] | | Vendor risk management. It's the process of identifying, assessing, and mitigating the risks associated with engaging third-party vendors or suppliers. |
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| ▲ | luc_ a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | ++ When an EU outlet says, "Given the annual savings, this sum will pay for itself in less than a year. In the past, the state transferred millions to the US company Microsoft, primarily for the use of office software and other programs." You know they want sovereignty. WRT the criticism on this move by "the opposition" saying, ""It may be that on paper 80 percent of workplaces have been converted. But far fewer than 80 percent of employees can now work with them properly."" I think this natural pressure will also be helpful for re-tooling IT infra and support companies to being more sovereign. |
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| ▲ | nyankas a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The German government actually started and funded quite a few projects supporting FOSS development over the past few years. For example, ZenDis was founded in 2022 to develop open-source software for the public administration. They are the driving force behind openDesk, which is shaping up to be a great office- and collaboration suite. Also, there's the Sovereign Tech Agency, where open-source projects can apply for direct funding. The available funds aren't as big as I'd like them to be, but it's not as if there's no funding coming from the German government. |
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| ▲ | VerifiedReports a day ago | parent [-] | | This is the first I've heard of OpenDesk. What makes it specific to "public administration," vs. regular business? | | |
| ▲ | nyankas a day ago | parent [-] | | ZenDis has the specific task of improving FOSS software for use by government agencies, so Germany's public administration is simply their primary focus in their development work. I honestly don't have enough experience with different collaboration suites to pinpoint any major feature differences. | | |
| ▲ | VerifiedReports a day ago | parent [-] | | Thanks. The software's homepage also cites its target of "public administration," so I'm curious as to what it might lack for private companies or projects. |
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| ▲ | eloeffler a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| An alternative would be to create jobs for people that take on part of the development of used software. They would be a close connection between their organization and the Open Source project in question. Paying money to the project would be one way to go. Providing development resources another. Both would be best :) |
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| ▲ | ghaff a day ago | parent [-] | | That's very true in the case of private companies. I'm not sure to what degree employing developers who contribute to open source projects (probably for lower than private sector wages) works in the case of a lot of public sector entities. | | |
| ▲ | onion2k a day ago | parent [-] | | Why would it make a difference? Offering developers a salary to contribute to an open source project is a good thing. Leave the developers to be free if they want to work for the offered amount. | | |
| ▲ | ghaff a day ago | parent [-] | | There are often different incentives, constraints, and pay scales. Nothing against public organizations doing this obviously. Just don't see a lot of evidence that it works well in general. | | |
| ▲ | onraglanroad a day ago | parent [-] | | Might work as part of a job guarantee scheme. Rather than being paid welfare benefits you can get more money by working on open source. Edit: I mean from a society perspective you pay a tiny bit more for a real gain, without reducing labour from the private sector. | | |
| ▲ | hvb2 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | The problem is that most of that work is not something anyone can pick up. Regardless of the coding, one would first need to be familiar with git or VCS in general. Also, you would want people to go back to normal jobs when they can. This would lead to short stints for all employees which I've always found to be one of the best predictors of bad outcomes | | |
| ▲ | onraglanroad 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Obviously it wouldn't work for everyone but for those who have an interest in computers it would be a nice option. I was unemployed for a while in 2008 and I'd have loved it if I could have got paid minimum wage for working on open source rather than just getting jobseekers allowance and searching for jobs that didn't exist. Plus I'd have learned some valuable skills that would help me find work anyway. And it would have increased the numbers of IT savvy workers. Seems like a win-win-win. |
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| ▲ | atonse a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This has been my view too... all these years, all these organizations with collective billions, and didn't anyone have the vision to say, let's all pool some money together and actually get these open source alternatives to shed some of the papercuts, and maybe hire some UX/designers to make them look more polished? |
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| ▲ | ho_schi a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| True. Software and computers don’t even exist to save money. A lot of problems stem from the weird idea of MBAs that a computer, digitalization or even cloud are there to save money. I hope Holstein prepared the switch well and kill off any Microsoft stuff as quick as possible. Nothing is worse than co-existence with something hostile which doesn’t want to be compatible. * No Dual-Booting
* No VM
* Especially no WINE (your ducked with every odd update)
* And by the love of god, hit everyone with a bat which tries to ship incompatible files (MS-Office, ppt, xls, pst…) to you. Links to “Microsoft Teams”? Hit harder and show no mercy :)
What to do, minimal list: * Make plan.
* Used standards wherever possible.
* Switch file-formats and external platforms before. Use a standard distribution and DO NOT MAKE YOUR OWN DISTRIBUTION. If you have a big IT department with hundreds of employees, maybe an own repository with your custom software.
* Enforce all suppliers hard to support Linux natively! If not? Drop them. Search a honest company which gives you also the source.
* Avoid the usual mistake like “this a local support company” or “their offer is cheaper”
* Don’t purchase shitty hardware. ThinkPads are a good start, but we speak about printers, NFC, label writers, scanners and so on.
If your answer doesn’t include either Debian, Red Hat, Canonical or Suse it is probably the wrong choice. You need support. The remaining 20 percent of workplaces are currently still dependent on Microsoft programs such as Word or Excel, as there is a technical dependency on these programs in certain specialized applications. According to Schrödter, however, the successive conversion of these remaining computers is the stated goal.
A red flag. Soft migrations work only, if both side cooperate. If not, hard migration. Short pain is better than long suffering.PS: And don’t repeat Munich! Munich is “HOW NOT”. Three distinct IT-Departments. And the next major was “convinced ” with tax money and a Microsoft Headquarters. Result, it is worse than before. |
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| ▲ | jimnotgym a day ago | parent | next [-] | | >dependent on Microsoft programs such as Word or Excel This kind of suggests that they have a bunch of VBA scripts in the tax department and the legal team are dependent on sharing 'track changes' in contracts. It will do the world a favour if the VBA is forced out. Don't know what they will do about 'track changes', it is ubiquitous in the contract world. Hopefully they will force government suppliers onto the libre alternative. | | |
| ▲ | ho_schi 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yep. That’s a hell. A hell to maintain. And searching the web for “Excel government failure…” is an adventure. Excel is a shell script containing data. Minus well defined syntax and a proper change log. I see the nice point behind using Excel, it is a “visual” shell script containing data. |
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| ▲ | GoblinSlayer a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Apparently their tax administration has some extensive automation with Excel spreadsheets and VBA. |
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| ▲ | ryukoposting a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are plenty of decision makers who will not be sold on an abstract concept like software sovereignty, especially when it requires them to change. Tell the same crowd "$15 million saved" and more of them will listen. They're out of their minds if they're donating nothing to Libreoffice, though. |
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| ▲ | MrDarcy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The idea is sound but the feeling of hate is perhaps strong. It’s understandable there’s no incentive to pay for open source software, and doing so would be seen as an unnecessary allocation of resources that could better be allocated elsewhere. Given this understanding, the best away to achieve the desired outcome is to get creative about aligning incentives at the top of org structures where resources are allocated. |
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| ▲ | nickff a day ago | parent [-] | | >”Given this understanding, the best away to achieve the desired outcome is to get creative about aligning incentives at the top of org structures where resources are allocated.” I really don’t understand what this means; could you please explain it? It comes off as ‘mushy’ consulting-speak to me. | | |
| ▲ | shermantanktop a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s a mini-language that you don’t have to learn unless you work with executive types. But it does mean something. In particular it means “activity at the grassroots is wasted effort when the real decision maker with the money is not aware or in agreement with the direction.” | | |
| ▲ | MrDarcy a day ago | parent [-] | | “Show me the incentive, I’ll show you the outcome.” -Charlie Munger |
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| ▲ | manphone a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Make the execs bonus based on open source success and then it will be the most funded thing of all time. | |
| ▲ | Terr_ a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Cynical read: "Executives are short-sighted and won't care unless the right thing somehow personally makes them money." |
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| ▲ | alecco a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Many years ago some people proposed to move open source to paid licensing to guarantee income for core open source developers. But the self-righteous community attacked them like it was the end of the world. In the current cancel culture even if you use *GPL licenses you get attacked for not being MIT or similar. But mysteriously never a peep about Big Tech making billions off open source without giving back even a tiny 1% to the projects. Insanity. |
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| ▲ | ThrowawayR2 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The sales pitch for FOSS to corporations in the 1990s and 2000s was "free as in speech and free as in beer". Reneging on that is a straight-up rug pull on the adopters. | | |
| ▲ | alecco a day ago | parent [-] | | Pretty sure it was "free as in libre and not as in beer". Source: I was there. | | |
| ▲ | ThrowawayR2 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Both gratis and libre were talking points for FOSS advocates, with gratis being leaned on heavily to persuade businesses who didn't give a hoot about libre, which turned out to be almost everybody. Source: I was there too. | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | LexiMax a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | "Open Source" has always been a play for Free Software from a pragmatic and business-focused point of view, as opposed to a community-focused and moralistic one. https://web.archive.org/web/20021001164015/http://www.openso... |
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| ▲ | NeutralForest a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's a really good point actually. If you're self hosting, you're already eating some cost by having people, probably in-house, doing the work but the price difference must be quite large and they should use it to support the project. |
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| ▲ | Bengalilol a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I hope those are not mutually exclusive actions. Switching and contributing may be on the Schleswig-Holstein Administration's agenda. |
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| ▲ | Jean-Papoulos 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >In contrast, there would be one-time investments of nine million euros in 2026 [...] and the further development of solutions with free software. They are contributing actively it seems, so even better. |
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| ▲ | input_sh 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | And in the sentence above that, they're "saving" 15 million in Microsoft licenses. So either they've paid 24 million to Microsoft this year, in which case their next year's expenses are dropping by over 60%, or it's the same pot of money, in which case their yearly bill dropped by 40%. I get that 9 million sounds like a lot, but it's much, much lower than what they would've paid to Microsoft anyways. And those 9 million are advertised as a "one-off investment", while their contract with Microsoft was perpetual. |
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| ▲ | ninth_ant a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You hate that, but what I hate that so many of my tax dollars are funnelled into bloated software run by awful foreign companies with massive lock-in scams, when better free software is available. I hate that lobbyists and consultants get these systems into place and can’t be unseated despite its utter unreasonableness. It’s a tremendous mis-allocation of public resources. Hiring local people to tailor the free software which already exists and contributing those changes back to the world would spend fewer of those dollars and spend them locally, and be pro-social at the same time. So I don’t hate this story. I love it and see it as a massive win. |
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| ▲ | 9dev a day ago | parent | next [-] | | That's a double-edged sword, though. Those tax dollars don't just pay for the license, but for ongoing development, responsibility for security issues, support contracts, emergency personnel, and so on. With a purely Open Source strategy, you'll have to pay multiple external consultants to take care of part of this, and/or cover these roles in-house. And suddenly, you've taken up a lot of tasks completely foreign to your business domain, such as new infrastructure and its maintenance, documentation requirements, software development, and so on. And we haven't even talked about the massive effort of educating your entire workforce on new tools and workflows. Assuming you just replace a proprietary software ecosystem with an Open Source one and immediately get the same thing for free is a very naive view that will get you in trouble. Having said that, as a German, I am very happy this switch happens and seems to have some backing in the local administration at least. But it's still a high-risk wager and I'm afraid it'll turn out like the LiMux project in Munich, which was eventually (and cleverly so) framed as the origin of all problems in the municipal digital infrastructure. In the end, it got swapped out for a new Microsoft contract in a wonderful example of lobbyism and bribery, and Open Source and Linux have been discredited, to the point no winning mayor candidate can ever bring it up again as a viable alternative. | | |
| ▲ | ninth_ant a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > With a purely Open Source strategy, you'll have to pay multiple external consultants to take care of part of this, and/or cover these roles in-house. And suddenly, you've taken up a lot of tasks completely foreign to your business domain, such as new infrastructure and its maintenance, documentation requirements, software development, and so on. Yes, this is what I’m talking about. Hiring people and developing expertise instead of paying expensive consultants is a preferred use of my tax dollars. > But it's still a high-risk wager and I'm afraid it'll turn out like the LiMux project in Munich, which was eventually (and cleverly so) framed as the origin of all problems in the municipal digital infrastructure. While this may be true, there are also quite prominent cases where the massively expensive foreign consultant solutions have also lead to disastrous project overruns. | |
| ▲ | lenkite a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Those tax dollars don't just pay for the license, but for ongoing development, responsibility for security issues, support contracts, emergency personnel, and so on. Maybe this was true at one point in time. But now, it just pays for AI/Copilot and your latest support chatbot. | | |
| ▲ | notpushkin a day ago | parent [-] | | This. Also, with FOSS, you choose who you hire for support. From the article, it seems they’re hiring developers locally, so it’s also creating jobs in the region instead of outsourcing to MSFT. But I hope they donate a bit to the maintainers, too. |
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| ▲ | sjamaan 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then you should support the Free Software Europe's "Public Money, Public Code" campaign: https://publiccode.eu/en/ |
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| ▲ | croes a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Because in Germany the price is the only thing that counts. Building a new street?
The cheapest bidder wins. Cuts to social security?
As long it saves money in the short term in doesn’t matter if the long term costs will be higher or if the cuts don’t make sense. |
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| ▲ | immibis a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why would a budget-conscious institution give away money for free? |
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| ▲ | bell-cot a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes. But budget decisions are made by politicians. Who know that one euro spent on things they could get for free is one euro less for things that voters and other interests are endlessly asking them to spend more on. |
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| ▲ | PeterStuer a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It should be what the kids these days call 'sovereignty', but ain't nobody got budget for that. |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
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