| ▲ | makingstuffs 4 hours ago |
| Reading all of these takes stating WFH leads to poor productivity simply doesn’t make sense to me. If your employees cannot be trusted to fulfil their responsibilities (whether in an office, their home or a tent in a woodland) that is not a geographical issue. It is a mentality issue and you are always going to face productivity issue from that employee regardless of from where they work. I’ve been told time and time again by an array of managers in a bunch of departments and companies that my productivity never changes. That is regardless of whether I am travelling or at home. This is including being in Sri Lanka during their worst economical crisis and facing power cuts of 8 - 12 hours everyday. As a responsible adult I prepared in advance. I bought power banks which could charge my laptop and ensured they were charged when the power worked. I bought SIM cards for all mobile networks and ensured I had data. It really is simply a matter of taking responsibility of one’s situation and having a sense of respect for, and from, your employer/employee. Forcing people into working conditions in which they are uncomfortable is only going to harbour resentment towards the company and if you are in a country where workers actually have real rights you will have a hard time firing them. I fear that this is all simply a smokescreen for the authoritarian shift which has occurred throughout the globe. It started pre pandemic and was exasperated during it. Scary times lay ahead. |
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| ▲ | imcrs 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| It's not about productivity at all. These same companies were commissioning studies during Covid that told their analysts "look how productive our employees are now that they are working from home!" It's about crushing labor. WFH forces employers to compete. It gives a lot of power to employees, because they can apply for far more roles, work fewer hours, moonlight for multiple companies, etc, apply for other jobs during work hours, etc. These companies know that white collar workers are not fungible. Their intellectual workers are genuinely very difficult to replace and produce a lot of value. For talent that isn't fungible, it's RTO. For talent that is fungible, offshoring. |
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| ▲ | imcrs 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | For your comment about the turn towards authoritarianism, yeah, there's a reason every DEI program at every large corporation was pulled back within a few months, and it's not because the C suite all reads the same Musk tweets on X. Employees started making demands of management to actually look at some... structural issues. Those demands had teeth because employees acted and organized as a bloc. Only a matter of time before other lines of questioning besides race and sex were explored at work. Yeah. | |
| ▲ | ChadNauseam an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's not about productivity at all. > WFH forces employers to compete. It gives a lot of power to employees, because they can [...] work fewer hours, moonlight for multiple companies, etc Probably "working fewer hours" and "moonlight for multiple companies" has negative effects on productivity that employers would like to avoid. | | |
| ▲ | imcrs an hour ago | parent [-] | | I've already kind of made it clear here where I stand on this, but I gotta tell you, you really do sound a lot like management. Do you really think your superstar programmers are well and truly doing intellectual work, the kind of work that produces business value, from the time they hit the coffee machine at 9AM to the time they grab their briefcase to go home at 5PM? If you believe this, I think you might be interested in bringing the Bobs in to discuss making our T.P.S. reporting process more efficient. They have thoughts on coversheets. | | |
| ▲ | moscoe 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I’m sorry management hurt you. It’s not your fault. | |
| ▲ | lukas099 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I’ll attempt a steelman and say, no, employees are not doing deep work from 9–5, but I could see being in an office 9–5 setting the stage for a lot of deep work to be done. Moonlighting for another company I could especially see as detrimental to focus at work. | |
| ▲ | legostormtroopr 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't expect someone to do deep focused work from 9am to 5pm. But at the same time, I don't expect them to spend their 9-to-5 working for another company at the same time. As a founder, who respects the 9-to-5 and supports WFH, if I'm paying for 8 hours of work, I want 8 hours of output. Not 4 hours of output, and then you working 4 hours for another job. If multi-jobbing becomes a thing, then WFH becomes untenable because at least in the office you can be monitored. | | |
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| ▲ | kaliqt 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| As Office Space says: it is a question of motivation. If you care, it'll get done. If you don't, you'll find a way to slack off, even if you're at the office. |
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| ▲ | notnaut 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is it not likely that people are more motivated to collaborate, talk about their work, plan together, feel a sense of excitement about work, etc. when they are communing in person? The ol watercooler mindset or whatever. I mean - there’s this popular topic of the issue of loneliness lately. People are less motivated to do things that would maybe normally bring them social joy and get them out of their own homes and bring them together with others in the flesh. You’d expect people to be motivated to do that kind of thing, maybe? But it’s hard. And it’s harder every day when there’s a zeitgeist of growing isolationism. I certainly don’t think the inflexibility of a 5 day in person work week with a hellish, uncompensated commute is the answer to the loneliness issue, nor the lack of motivation to do good work. But maybe there is some middle ground that would serve as a kick in the pants of sorts, without making us all miserable little ants going to and fro once again, that could help people get back out there in a way that helps. I mean, at least, it doesn’t seem like the metaverse or whatever else is filling that gap as the techno-seers foresaw… but maybe future generations will prove that to be more realistic than bringing people back out together in meatspace. Or maybe we just stoop deeper into this new reclusiveness without any real stand ins for grabbing lunch together at all. |
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| ▲ | BrenBarn an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There is a middle ground though between "employees can't be trusted" and "all is well". It's possible for there to be a genuine difference in affordances such that people are more productive in some places than others. I think many people would be less productive in a dank basement than in a pleasant office, but then again maybe you don't want it to be too cushy or productivity may go down. I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to be equally productive in all environments. That said, I share your fear that all such considerations are just a smokescreen. In a larger sense the entire issue of "productivity" is a smokescreen. We don't need "more productivity". What we need is for people to be happy, and potentially that may be achieved by reducing productivity in some ways. |
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| ▲ | chii 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > What we need is for people to be happy that is irrelevant to company management - in so far as that happiness has negligible effect on productivity. However, from anecdotal evidence i've gathered (only sample size of 5-7 or so), in office has been more productive, but they (with the exception of one, who lives 5 mins from their office) all dislike RTO and would've preferred WFH; but not enough to quit over it as it's not a 5 day mandate, but a 3-4 day mandate. |
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| ▲ | rustystump 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I am pretty sure that 99% of the anti rto is exclusively due to the god awful soul crushing commute. 5 days a week an hour each way 10 hours of death each week. There is no authoritarian “shift” this has been business as usual for the last 100 years. Stupid business but business nonetheless |
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| ▲ | nodoodles 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Only a 100 years — the whole history before that was working in the vicinity of a home, it does feel natural to return to that. Instead of anvils, we hit keyboards and instead of swords produce alignment, but either way it brings food to the table and allows flexibility in work-life? |
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| ▲ | rubenvanwyk 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The core issue is like you said - responsibility. |
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| ▲ | alsetmusic 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | My previous employer ran an experiment. They had us come in two days per week for six weeks and ran the numbers. We ended up going 100% wfh with a downsized office. We been planning to double our office capacity before the pan. I’m convinced that more than half of orgs would see similar numbers if they cared to look. I bet a bunch of the ones mandating RTO see them but do it anyway. |
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| ▲ | amrocha 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Good thing for you that you’re productive anywhere. I’m not. I much prefer working from an office. I’m way more efficient and happy in an office than working from home. It’s not a matter of mentality. It’s a matter of being in an environment conducive to work. You would benefit from not assuming that everyone is the same as you. |
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| ▲ | ciberado an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | At work, we have the opportunity to choose. Many people are like you and find that going to the office helps their productivity and mental health. Most of us (including me) visit the office only a few times a year. I think having the choice is great. Although it comes with its own challenges, it works really well when you establish the right culture. | | |
| ▲ | amrocha 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | imo that’s the worst of both worlds. That’s what my company does, and none of the engineers ever come in. My manager comes in when he has meetings, and I’ll go in sometimes, but I’m usually alone. None of the benefits of collocation with all the of downsides of an office. I find that office days work a lot better. Everyone comes in Tuesdays and Thursdays or something. | | |
| ▲ | vladvasiliu 15 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Your initial post was about there being choice. Now it appears that the upside of the office is the others being there. I can understand that some people like the physical distinction between "work" and "home". My boss is like that, and he would actually go to the office during covid when no one else would be there. He lived alone in a comfortable apartment, so there wasn't even a question of loud kids / no space for a desk. It obviously never came up that we should also show up. He sometimes wants us to come in the office, all the at the same time, for some form of all-hands meetings, but he doesn't just drop them out of the blue: we plan these together, and they don't happen on a fixed, tight schedule. The company has now moved to a "flex office" scheme. I was already not very happy having to go in, but you can imagine I now abhor it. Having to share desks with people who don't give a shit about office equipment, having to clean up the screens because they figure it's fine to stick their fingers on them and having to use shoddy peripherals... And it goes on and on, you've read it on every HN post on the subject. Luckily for me, they don't really enforce this, and I can still spend most of my days WFH and still have a semi-dedicated desk. But your post is the reason why many people are up in arms against this whole "the office is better". Apparently, it's only better if you force everybody back in. So it's not really about "choice", but about having one's preferences be the "right" ones. |
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| ▲ | zaradvutra an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > You would benefit from not assuming that everyone is the same as you. So would you. A typical office is not an "environment conductive to work" for everyone. Noise, recirculated air, lifeless rows of desks, bad company and a 2h total commute? No thanks. | | |
| ▲ | amrocha an hour ago | parent [-] | | I’m not the one saying people who prefer working from home are lazy, irresponsible slackers though, am I? I just explained my experience. Funny that you perceive that as an attack on yourself. What does that say about you? |
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| ▲ | stavros 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Whenever I'm in the office, I get zero work done. It's great for socialising and catching up with colleagues, but abysmal for productivity. | | |
| ▲ | amrocha an hour ago | parent [-] | | That’s only because you go to the office once in a blue moon. If it was your daily routine you’d get used to it and be productive there too, just maybe not as much as when you’re home. Did you work in an office before covid? I’m sure your productivity wasn’t abysmal or you wouldn’t still be working in tech | | |
| ▲ | stavros 34 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I go to the office around one week out of every four, it's not that rare. Sure, there's some catching up, but not that much. Mostly it's the continuous interruptions that are never time boxed, the way they are when remote. |
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