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Mozilla's latest quagmire(rubenerd.com)
54 points by nivethan 2 hours ago | 43 comments
bitpush 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> It might be hard to believe for my younger readers, but Mozilla took on Internet Explorer that was just as entrenched as Chrome is now, and they kicked proverbial posterior! They did because they offered a better browser that respected the people who used it, and gave them agency in their browsing experience.

That is revisionist history. Firefox succeeded because MS was sitting on their hands with IE, and it was stagnating. Firefox didnt do the opposite of what IE - you could argue Mozilla was doing what MS should have been.

It wasnt about "respecting users", or "agency" but simply implemented standards properly.

And that's going to be a hard problem with Chrome because you're up against a browser that is moving very, very, fast.

embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Firefox was seriously a better browser, not just "implements standards better". It ran faster, it had tabs (wow!) and at one point it got Firebug which let you have a console INSIDE the browser that showed information you could print with `console.log`, I kid you not.

It was a better browser through and through, maybe because MS slept on IE or maybe not, but in the end it isn't revisionist to say they beat MS's proverbial posterior because the browser was better.

cogman10 an hour ago | parent [-]

Firebug was a big reason for webdevs to adopt firefox in the first place. Part of what made chrome succeed is it came out with a pretty robust set of webdev tools right from the get-go.

But also, google spent a mountain of money advertising chrome.

ghurtado an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Part of what made chrome succeed is it came out with a pretty robust set of webdev tools right from the get-go.

I think this factor isn't given enough weight in the shift to Firefox.

At that time, the largest pain point in web development was (by a long shot) browser compatibility.

When developers fell in love with Firefox, they started pushing business requirements away from IE and towards the browser that didn't feel like it was their enemy. Alongside with this there was also massive shift to start taking web standards seriously, which is another area where IE dropped the ball spectacularly

It took a few years, but eventually pointy haired managers got sick of our whining and gave in.

cogman10 an hour ago | parent [-]

We, no joke, ultimately were able to drop our support for IE6->8 because of the youtube "we are dropping support for IE" banner. We spun it to our bosses as "If google is doing this, we should be able to."

paradox460 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Chrome has the advantage that they inherited webkits inspector. The chrome team made improvements, yes, but it originated in Safari

evilduck an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Chrome borrowed their webdev tools from Webkit, who borrowed them from KHTML. Chrome launched with dev tools, but they didn't develop their own distinct version of them for many years after launching the browser.

cxr 33 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Chrome borrowed their webdev tools from Webkit, who borrowed them from KHTML.

Neither KDE nor OS X ever shipped their built-in Web Inspector prior to the appearance of Firebug in 2006, and by that point WebKit and Safari were already in full swing. The very first iteration[1] of Web Inspector appeared around the same time as Firebug and was an original contribution by Apple.

1. <https://web.archive.org/web/20070621162114/https://webkit.or...>

thomassmith65 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

  It wasnt about "respecting users", or "agency" but simply implemented standards properly.
That's the story of how Netscape succeeded against MSIE. Only they didn't. Firefox did.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape:

  In November 2007, IE had 77.4% of the browser market, Firefox 16.0%, and Netscape 0.6%
cogman10 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd also point out that IE won the title from Netscape in the first place, which was the basis for the Mozilla software set (that later spun off into firefox).

Mozilla didn't "take on" IE. Mozilla reclaimed their lost browser position. IE kicked the proverbial posterior of Netscape which both Netscape and Mozilla struggled to reclaim right up until the release of Firefox.

readthenotes1 an hour ago | parent [-]

Didn't Mozilla reclaim its title after Microsoft stopped its s monopolistic and anti-competitive activities? Or do I have the timing wrong?

cogman10 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

That was maybe a factor in the EU. In the US, MS never really stopped their anti-competitive activities. IE has been distributed as the default browser for windows in the US since forever.

MS presented the choice for a browser from 2009->2011.

IDK that MS has ever actually fixed the situation since their last fine in 2013.

IIRC, firefox really started taking off around Firefox 3, which was first released in 2006. Looks like they officially beat IE in 2010. That does seem to line up with MS's implementation of the browser choice screen.

biglyburrito an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

lol, please tell me at what point in time Microsoft stopped its monopolistic and anti-competitive activities.

ghurtado an hour ago | parent [-]

They never did stop, but there was a time when they had to slow down right after being found guilty in a pretty big anti trust case in 2001.

The case was specifically about IE integration in Windows, so it definitely had an impact.

I think this is probably what the comment was thinking about.

smileson2 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

builds on your point but from what I remember actually having tabs was a really big deal too

arjie an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Mozilla has the classic problem of a non-profit that achieved its aims. I was around back in the day and my friends and I were avid evangelists of Firefox - a few cogs in the wheel of the marketing installing Firefox on school machines and getting all the elderly people to use it and so on. There were user groups and student ambassador programs and so on. It was an incredible marketing effort combined with an effort to bring standards and compliance to them into the mainstream. And it worked because they added features at a rate that IE simply did not match.

The extension ecosystem, tabs, plugins, and notably whatever effort they did behind the scenes to ensure that companies that did streaming video etc. would work with their browser all played out really well.

I think the ultimate problem is that Mozilla's mission of a standards-compliant web with open-source browsers everywhere ultimately did get achieved. The era of "Works with IE6" badges has ended and the top browsers run on open-source engines. Despite our enthusiasm at the time for it, I think the truth is that Firefox was probably just a vehicle for this, much bigger, achievement.

Now that it's been achieved, Mozilla is in the fortunate place where Firefox only needs to exist as a backstop against Chrome sliding into high-proprietary world while providing the utility to Google that they get to say they're not a monopoly on web technologies.

Mozilla's search for a new mission isn't some sign of someone losing their way. It's just what happens to the Hero of Legend after he defeats the Big Bad. There's a post-denouement period. Sam Gamgee gets to go become Mayor of the Shire, which is all very convenient, but a non-profit like Mozilla would much rather find a similar enough mission that they can apply their vast resources to. That involves the same mechanics as product development, and they're facing the same primary thing: repeated failure.

That's just life.

edelbitter an hour ago | parent | next [-]

This new "please accept cookies and scripts to prove you are running Google Chrome without Adblockers" Internet does not exactly look like mission accomplished to me. And that is before we even get to the part of the Internet that goes straight to "please run this Android app so we can ask Google who truly owns your device".

If Mozilla was not busy "offering" (renamed the no-thank-you setting once again) so many "experiences" they could be doing much of the same stuff they did back in the day.

RicoElectrico a minute ago | parent | prev [-]

American non-profits seem to be run like corporations, with all disadvantages of it. Bloated, losing focus, growing for the sake of growth.

hd4 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's advisable to use a prefs.js for this sort of thing

https://kb.mozillazine.org/Prefs.js_file

notafox an hour ago | parent [-]

prefs.js is modified by browser itself. And it contains lots of stuff by default already.

You can store your custom preferences in user.js file - Firefox will copy those to prefs.js at startup.

From your link:

   The user.js[1] file is optional. If you have one whenever the application is started it will overwrite any settings in prefs.js with the corresponding settings from user.js. 
[1] https://kb.mozillazine.org/User.js_file
acomjean an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I noticed the ai sidebar. Annoying. But left column browser tabs are back, which is a plus.

einpoklum 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People should also know that Firefox (and Thunderbird) collect _quite a bit_ of information about your interaction via their telemetry mechanisms.

Here are instructions on how to disable all of it:

https://github.com/Aetherinox/firefox-telemetry-block

(and no, you can't do it with just a few checkboxes in the prefs, you have to go into the advanced pref editor and look up some stuff.)

arp242 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think I disabled "Use AI to suggest tab group names" and "enable link previews" in settings (not about:config), and I don't really see any AI anywhere else? I can add/remove some chat thing from the sidebar, but you can just remove that button and you don't need to use it. It's like any other feature one may choose to not use.

I now see there's also a "Create alt texts automatically" for pdfjs. This actually seems one of the more useful AI features I've seen. But I've never noticed it exists as I don't need this accessibility feature. You can disable it in the pdfjs (no about:config needed).

In short, Firefox is not forcing anyone to use AI and ways to disable it are not that obfuscated.

IshKebab 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the majority who don’t use “AI”

Citation definitely needed. ChatGPT has almost a billion users.

I do agree with the main point that this should be easy to turn off, but let's not pretend that everyone hates AI as much as the average HN nerd.

Also, you could argue that Firefox's only remaining users are the average HN nerd and therefore it shouldn't pursue AI, but that's exactly the problem.

raincole an hour ago | parent | next [-]

People who hate AI enough to affect their choice of browser are definitely the minority.

However, realistically Firefox is a niche browser now and will stay so. So niche that appealing to the minority becomes a valid strategy again.

cpncrunch an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

According to a Pew study, the majority of Americans use AI on a regular basis:

https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2025/09/17/ai-in-america...

Bratmon an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, that claim killed all credibility of the author for me. I firmly believe that if making your point requires you to invent some statistics that clearly don't pass the smell test, it's time to accept that your point may be wrong.

danielhlockard an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Another user said this, but I'm going to echo it -- Firefox opened up the LLM chat sidebar one time. I closed it. It's stayed closed. It hasn't asked me to open it again. I don't understand the hatred for something you can just _not use_. People will use it if they want to. Firefox also has a very tiny market share in comparison to other browsers.

barnabee 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

I need things I don’t want to use to not appear in the UI.

I don’t fill my house with tools and products I don’t want and I’m not willing to have them on my computer screen either.

hekkle an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Putting the flags in Firefox just seems logical not "Hostile Design". Yes, there could be an easier way to turn it off, such as a menu item, but the flags need to be there first before the menu entry can exist.

The author claims to be an "IaaS engineer", surely, he can figure out how to write a firefox plugin, that can do what he wants, and use that to help non-technical users, and if it becomes popular enough will probably effect the change he wishes to see.

edelbitter an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Its not just that each new "feature" is unnecessarily difficult to disable, and already active-with-privacy-side-effect by the time you notice.

Most new "features" are by now covered by an existing setting and/or policy. Yet I recognize a pattern of introducing new "but did you opt out of THIS NEW thing?" or "but did you opt out of VERSION TWO of this previously rejected thing?" setting/policy. It has become unsafe to upgrade to new Firefox releases, because each one will disrespect previous user choice in another unexpected way.

hekkle 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

If you don't want new features, don't upgrade it, what in the non-sequitur is this? I get the argument that it SHOULD be OPT-IN rather than OPT-OUT, but that would require annoying pop-ups every upgrade that explains the new features and ask if you want to OPT-IN. That is more burden on the developers and will annoy more users than benefit.

If you are concerned, they do have what is called a 'changelog' that will explain all of the new features and how to switch them off if you like.

tapoxi an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Why can't the menu entry be created alongside the flags? Surely if it's too complicated, then creating a plugin would also be too complicated for someone who doesn't work at Mozilla and doesn't know the codebase?

anon7000 an hour ago | parent [-]

It’s probably not too complicated, more a matter of how to expose settings to users in a way that makes sense. Every flag could be automatically turned into a better UI or menu somewhere, but then you have thousands of settings no one cares about which would be easy to use incorrectly. The stuff that shows up in context menus and settings needs to be a least a little bit curated for it to make sense. about:config isn’t exactly hard to use either (there’s an actual UI, not the code shown in the blog post).

In this case, yeah, having a single option to toggle off AI settings makes plenty of sense to curate a settings page for! But it’s probably a prioritization or product problem, not a technical issue.

Aeolun an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The latest quagmire is Firefox adding a completely optional AI sidebar? Seriously, some people are impossible to please. Just don’t open it if you don’t like it…

sfRattan 25 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I've added a room to your home.

Sometimes, there's a butler in there who seems absentminded and can only remember things up to a few thousand words. He once stacked all your dishes in the refrigerator and dumped all the food into the sink.

Other times, there's a demon in there who seems hellbent on destroying the innocence of your children and ripping apart your family. He once gave your children snuff films and instructions to build a bomb.

Just don't open the door if you don't like it... Some people are impossible to please.

Aeolun 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

No, no.

> I've added a room to your home.

They’ve added a room to their home. That they let you live in, for free.

I’ll also mention that the room right next to it had all the contents you claim to take issue with.

The problem here is that you shouldn’t leave children home alone, not that it has two potentially dangerous rooms. There’s several more such rooms in your house, and you wouldn’t let them cook or use your power tools by themselves either (not until they prove they can be trusted with that anyway).

sfRattan 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yes, this is why we routinely fill council homes (or public project housing) with amnesiac butlers to rearrange the residents' possessions, and also with demons for, um, reasons.

Completely reasonable things to do.

How else would we recoup our investment in the hugely expensive, unpredictable butler/demon spawning machines?

>The problem here is that you shouldn’t leave children home alone, not that it has two potentially dangerous rooms. There’s several more such rooms in your house, and you wouldn’t let them cook or use your power tools by themselves either (not until they prove they can be trusted with that anyway).

Depends on age, and the children in question. Also, if I have power tools it's because I chose them. And neither amnesiac butlers nor amoral demons are necessary to not starve in the way that cooking food is, so the assessments of risk and basic good sense are not comparable.

tumult 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No. There is a lot more than that. The AI stuff appears in places in the UI where other things used to, like in right-click menus and when you are entering text into fields. And it's not opt-in. It's on by default. Unless you are willing to search for how to turn it off and open the non-GUI about:config stuff and modify raw settings in a text table (with no descriptions or help text next to them) then you can't even turn it off. Also, the AI stuff takes up disk space.

phyzome 2 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And added Perplexity to the search engines, and did the tab grouping thing, and took away keyboard shortcut space for the sidebar...

throwaway1389z 24 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Based on the article, you have to disable a whole heap of AI features, not a simple optional AI sidebar.

This include things like using AI to assist with rendering/processing of PDF, looking at the flags.

As a Firefox users, this seems very troubling to me.

Aeolun 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

That’s what the flags seem to have as a subject sure, but my firefox hasn’t spammed AI in my face even once, and I’ve looked at a lot of PDF’s, so clearly it’s not mandatory.

jrjfjgkrj an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I use Firefox as my main browser.

when the AI tab/sidebar appeared, I just closed it. that's it. and it never appeared again. I didn't need to change any special setting.

maybe there was another dialog or two which asked me to enable AI something which I answered No and dont remember.

this article is written in bad faith, Firefox is not pushing AI at every opportunity like Edge for example