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rubyn00bie 4 hours ago

Yeah, I remember hearing NVidia did the same thing via Moore’s Law is Dead podcast. At this point it seems incredibly unlikely Intel will unseat TSMC anytime soon. TSMC has proven time and time again it is the only fab capable of producing leading edge nodes at the capacity and quality required by the likes of Apple, NVidia, and AMD. It also has substantially deeper pockets than Intel to continue to invest in staying number one.

I think if Intel is to stand a chance it’ll be via gaining momentum and market via “good enough” nodes and not cutting edge, essentially taking a page out of TSMCs playbook from the late 2000s and early 2010s. It needs more capital than it can raise, and time, both of which are hard to come by.

stinkbeetle 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> TSMC has proven time and time again it is the only fab capable of producing leading edge nodes at the capacity and quality [...]. It also has substantially deeper pockets than Intel to continue to invest in staying number one.

Before about 2016, you could have said the same about Intel. They were generally considered process technology leaders. They were > a year ahead in shipping products with their latest 14nm node. Similarly their previous 22nm node. There had been several occasions over the previous decades where manufacturers stumbled, not as spectacularly as Intel's decade of malaise, but definitely nodes scrapped level.

So, things can change quite quickly. Intel's 18A node is likely to be "better" than TSMC's current N3x nodes (it is denser and better performing on paper) and will ship before N2, putting Intel momentarily in the lead for process technology again for a quarter or so, and it was first with some technologies like BSPD (TSMC won't do that until A16). Yields are a question, and N2 will be coming out which probably re-takes the lead... but this is quite a turnaround from late 2010s situation, right?

The big thing Intel needs is a working foundry pipeline, because there is so much money in high performance silicon that's not x86 these days. It has always been thought their CPU design teams were very close to fabrication which was thought to be something of an advantage for them. It's likely that has also made their process more difficult for outsiders. They've tried and failed several times to get this going and get external design wins, and just never done well even when their manufacturing was doing really well. Including this latest effort (https://overclock3d.net/news/misc/intel-may-cancel-its-18a-l...). Still, it's not impossible, and I'm sure TSMC considers this one of its biggest risks if Intel can boot a self-sustaining foundry business.

CharlieDigital an hour ago | parent [-]

    > Before about 2016, you could have said the same about Intel.
I'm going to guess that part of the problem is American business culture and ceding high level strategic decisions not to engineers but to MBA types. It's hard to see anyone falling the same way Intel fell looking at companies like Nvidia and AMD whom are both still (outside looking in) very much engineering driven.
nateglims an hour ago | parent [-]

What decisions were MBA instead of engineering decisions? It seems like intel has just made a lot of bad bets or failed to put their mass behind good ones.

The heights nvidia has achieved seem incidental and have depended heavily on the transformer/LLM market materializing.

GeekyBear 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To be fair, Intel is finally making the major manufacturing equipment investments needed to catch up.

They previously did stock buybacks and acquisitions of other companies that went nowhere instead of investing in the EUV manufacturing equipment TSMC used. Now they have the more advanced version of EUV in production.

> Intel has reported processing over 30,000 wafers in a single quarter using High-NA EUV exposure, achieving simplified manufacturing by reducing the required steps for a particular layer from 40 to fewer than 10,

https://www.techpowerup.com/342239/intels-advanced-packaging...

an hour ago | parent [-]
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criddell 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apple likes to own the core components of the stuff they sell. How surprising would it be for Apple to buy Intel's factories and hire away some of TSMC's top scientists and engineers?

GeekyBear 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Apple doesn't buy its manufacturing partners.

If you can make something with the quality Apple wants, they will buy you a manufacturing line in exchange for price, quality and production level guarantees.

Since Intel needs large customers for its Fab and capital investments, it would be a good deal for them even if the profit margin is much lower than they would prefer.

Tuna-Fish 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apple really doesn't like to own manufacturing. They want to be in a position of a favored key customer, but still have the ability to switch vendors at a moment's notice if they can get a better deal.

bigyabai 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Very surprising. It would be an unprecedented amount of responsibility for Apple to subsume when they could let the fed nationalize it and save a few billion dollars for a rainy day.

storus 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Didn't that "good enough" strategy fail with Global Foundries? They "good enoughed" themselves to irrelevance.