| ▲ | All about automotive lidar(mainstreetautonomy.com) |
| 41 points by dllu a day ago | 18 comments |
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| ▲ | CGMthrowaway an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| Adding a comment here with some info on LIDAR human safety, since many are asking. There are two wavelengths of interest used: a) 905 nm/940 nm (roof and bumpers): 70–100 µJ per pulse max, regulated by IEC 60825 since this WL is focused on the retina
b) 1550 nm systems (the Laser Bear Honeycomb): 8–12 mJ per pulse allowed (100x more photons since this WL stays the cornea)
The failure mode of these LIDARs can be akin to a weapon. A stuck mirror or frozen phased array turns into a continuous-wave pencil beam.
A 1550 nm LIDAR leaking 1W continuous will raise corneal temperature >5C in 100ms. The threshold for cataract creation is only 4C rise in temp.
A 905 nm Class 1 system stuck in one pixel gives 10 mW continuous on retina, capable of creating a lesion in 250ms or less.20 cars at an intersection = 20 overlapping scanners, meaning even if each meets single-device Class 1, linear addition could offer your retina a 20x dose enough to push into Class 3B territory. The current regs (IEC 60825-1:2014) assume single-source exposure. There is no standard for multi-source, multi-axis, moving-platform overlay. Additionally, no LIDAR manufacturer publishes beam-failure shutoff latency. Most are >50ms, which can be long enough for permanent injury |
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| ▲ | dllu 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The article talks about eye safety a bit in section 4. > a stuck mirror This is one of the advantages of using an array of low power lasers rather than steering a single high power laser. The array physically doesn't have a failure mode where the power gets concentrated in a single direction. Anyway, theoretically, you would hope that class 1 eye-safe lidars should be eye safe even at point blank range, meaning that even if the beam gets stuck pointing into your eye, it would still be more or less safe. > 20 cars at an intersection = 20 overlapping scanners, meaning even if each meets single-device Class 1, linear addition could offer your retina a 20x dose enough to push into Class 3B territory. In the article, I point out a small nuance: If you have many lidars around, the beams from each 905 nm lidar will be focused to a different spot on your retina, and you are no worse off than if there was a single lidar. But if there are many 1550 nm lidars around, their beams will have a cumulative effect at heating up your cornea, potentially exceeding the safety threshold. Also, if a lidar is eye-safe at point blank range, when you have multiple cars tens of meters away, laser beam divergence already starts to reduce the intensity, not to mention that when the lidars are scanning properly, the probability of all of them pointing in the same spot is almost impossible. | |
| ▲ | krackers an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I was always curious about this, it's impossible to find any safety certifications or details about the lidars used by e.g. Waymo. Are we supposed to just trust that they didn't cut corners, especially given the financial incentives to convince people that lidar is necessary (because there's a notable competitor that doesn't use it). To date most class-1 lasers have also been hidden/enclosed I think (and there is class 1M for limited medical use), so I'm not convinced that the limits for long-term daily exposure have been properly studied. Until I see 3rd party studies otherwise, I plan to treat vehicle lidar no different than laser pointers and avoid looking directly at them. If/when cars become common enough that this is too hard to do, maybe I'll purchase NIR blocking glasses (though most ones I found have an ugly green tint, I wonder if it's possible to make the frequency cutoff sharp enough that it doesn't filter out visible reds). | |
| ▲ | addaon 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A quick note about units -- you correctly quote the limits as an energy-per-pulse limit. The theory behind this is that pulses are short enough that rotation during a pulse is negligible, so they tend to hit a single point (on the retina, at focusable frequencies; the cornea itself for longer wave lengths), and the absorption of that energy is what causes damage. But LiDAR range is determined not by energy per pulse, but by power. This drives a desire for minimum-time pulses, often < 10 ns -- if you can halve your pulse length, you can increase your range substantially while still being eye-safe. GaNFETs are one of the enabling technologies for pulsed lidar, since they're really the only way out there to steer tens of amps in single-digit nanoseconds. Even once you've solved generating short pulses, though, you still need to interpret short responses. Which drives either a need for very fast ADCs (gigasample+), or TDCs, which are themselves fascinating components. | |
| ▲ | addaon an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > There are two wavelengths of interest used Ouster uses (or at least used to use, not sure if they still do) 840 nm. Much higher quantum efficiency for standard silicon receivers, without having to play games with stressed silicon and stuff; but also much better focusing by the retina, so lower power permitted. |
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| ▲ | addaon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Having built a LiDAR system for an autonomy company in the past, this is a great write-up, but it omits what I found to be one of the more interesting challenges. For our system (bistatic, discrete edge-emitting laser diodes and APDs; much like a Velodyne system at high level), we had about an inch of separation between our laser diodes and our photodiodes. With 70 A peak currents through the laser diodes. And nanoamp sensitivity in the photodiodes. EMI is... interesting. Many similar lidars ignore the problem by blanking out responses very close to firing time, giving a minimum range sensitivity, and by waiting for maximum delay to elapse before firing the next salvo -- but this gives a maximum fire rate that can be an issue. For example, a 32 channel system running at 20 kHz/channel would be limited to ~200 m range (468 m round trip delay, some blanking time needed)... so to get both high rate (horizontal resolution) and high channel count (vertical resolution), you need to be able to ignore your own cross-talk and be able to fire when beams are in flight. |
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| ▲ | jandrese 43 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | 200m range seems adequate for passenger vehicle use. Even at 100kph that's over 7 seconds to cover the distance even if you aren't trying to slow down. I think there is diminishing returns with chasing even longer ranges. Even fully loaded trucks are expected to stop in about 160m or so. | | |
| ▲ | addaon 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yep, 200 m is pretty close to standard. Which is why 32 channel and 20 kHz is a pretty common design point. But customers would love 64 channel and 40 kHz, for example. Also, it's worth noting that if your design range is 200 m -- your beam doesn't just magically stop beyond that. While the inverse square law is on your side in preventing a 250 m target from interfering with the next pulse, a retro-reflector at 250 m can absolutely provide a signal that aliases with a ~16 m signal (assuming 234 m time between pulses) on the next channel under the right conditions. This is an edge case -- but it's one that's observable under steady-state conditions, it's not just a single pulse that gets misinterpreted. |
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| ▲ | newpavlov an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | >we had about an inch of separation between our laser diodes and our photodiodes Why can't you place them further away from each other using an additional optical system (i.e. a mirror) and adjusting for the additional distance in software? | | |
| ▲ | addaon an hour ago | parent [-] | | You can, but customers like compact self-contained units. All trade offs. Edit: There's basically three approaches to this problem that I'm aware of. Number one is to push the cross-talk below the noise floor -- your suggestion helps with this. Number two is to do noise cancellation by measuring your cross-talk and deleting it from the signal. Number three is to make the cross-talk signal distinct from a real reflection (e.g. by modulating the pulses so that there's low correlation between an in-flight pulse and a being-fired pulse). In practice, all three work nicely together; getting the cross-talk noise below saturation allows cancellation to leave the signal in place, and reduced correlation means that the imperfections of the cancellation still get cleaned up later in the pipeline. |
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| ▲ | rappatic 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In the current state of self-driving tech, lidar is clearly the most effective and safest option. Yet companies like Tesla refuse to integrate lidar, preferring to rely solely on cameras. This is partially to keep costs down. But this means the Tesla self-driving isn't quite as good as Waymo, which sits pretty comfortably at level 4 autonomy. But humans have no lidar technology. We rely almost solely on sight for driving (and a tiny bit on sound I guess). Hence in principle it should be possible for cars to do so too. My question is this: at what point, if at all, will self-driving get good enough to make automotive lidar redundant? Or will it always be able to make the self-driving 1% better than just cameras? |
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| ▲ | floatrock 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > My question is this: at what point, if at all, will self-driving get good enough to make automotive lidar redundant? By 2018, if you listen to certain circa-2015 full self-driving technologists. | |
| ▲ | convenwis 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are unquestionably some cases where Lidar adds actual data that cameras can't see and is relevant to driving accuracy. So the real question is whether there are cases where Lidar actually hurts. I think that is possible but unlikely to be the case. | |
| ▲ | readthenotes1 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Many humans do a really bad job at driving, so I'm not sure we should try to emulate that. And it is certain that in India they use sound sound for echolocation. | | |
| ▲ | rappatic 32 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Many humans do a really bad job at driving, so I'm not sure we should try to emulate that Agreed, but there are still really good human drivers, who still operate on sight alone. It's more about the upper bound, not the human average, that can be achieved with only sight. |
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| ▲ | Barathkanna 29 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I learned a lot from this article. The breakdown of the different LiDAR types and how they fit into real automotive sensor stacks was especially helpful. Nice to see a clear explanation without the usual hype or ideology around cameras vs. LiDAR. |
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| ▲ | Animats an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| No mention of flash LIDAR, which really ought to be seen more for the short-range units for side and rear views. Interference between LIDARs can be a problem, mostly with the continuous-wave emitters. Pulsed emitters are unlikely to collide in time, especially if you put some random jitter in the pulse timing to prevent it. The radar people figured this out decades ago. |
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| ▲ | dllu 15 minutes ago | parent [-] | | A flash lidar is simply a 2D array of detectors plus a light source that's not imaged. It's mentioned super briefly at the start of section 3 but you're right, I should have gone into more detail given how common and important they are. For pulsed emitters, indeed adding random jitter in the timing would avoid the problem of multiple lidars being synced up and firing at the same time. For some SPAD sensors, it's common to emit a train of multiple pulses to make a single measurement. Adding random jitter between them is a known and useful trick to mitigate interference. But in fact it isn't super accurate to say that interference is a problem for continuous-wave emitters either. Coherent FMCW lidar are typically quite robust against interference by, say, using randomized chirp patterns. |
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