| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 3 hours ago |
| > In some places, anti-densification rules continue to raise property values, and in these places we should expect the Downzoning to be as politically robust as it has been for the last century: it really does give property owners something they want. I have to wonder to what extent that's actually true. To begin with, if you have a single family home in an area with high demand, upzoning could make someone willing to pay you even more than the house is currently worth because they could still turn a profit when turning it into ten or twenty times as much housing on the same lot. In other words, the value of the house may go down but the value of the land goes up when you can build more housing on it. On top of that, higher housing prices don't necessarily equate to a better life or even more money. If your house is worth more but you still need a place to live then you can't sell it, unless you are planning to sell it soon in which case upzoning gets you more money because developers start bidding on your house before the new housing the upzoning allows to be built is on the market yet. If not, it's not just your house that costs more. The other ones do too, which increases cost of living. Local shops have to pay higher rents and pass on that cost to you, or can't find local workers because young people can't afford local rent, so they have to close down. Then you get higher local unemployment and more crime and homelessness. You might even lose your own job because your employer moved out. What do you think drives offshoring? High domestic costs. And if people are only thinking about the first order effect then they might imagine downzoning is to their advantage when it isn't. Which makes them support it but only until someone shows them the math. |
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| ▲ | jakobnissen 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Even if you need your home to live in, you can still borrow against your property value, essentially "eating the bricks". Alternatively, you can use the value of your house as an emergency fund: If you desperately need money, you can move into something smaller, or more distant from the city, and cash out. If you do neither of these things, your children will inherit the value of your house. Either way, the money you gain are real money, and you actually gain them. |
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| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Even if you need your home to live in, you can still borrow against your property value, essentially "eating the bricks". This is not a source of money, it's only a source of collateral. Anything you borrow not only has to be paid back, you have to pay interest. And interest rates are higher than they used to be and the standard deduction is now large enough that most people don't get to deduct the interest anymore. Moreover, it only means anything if the difference in value would have made a difference. If you want to borrow $20,000 then a house with $100,000 in equity is quite sufficient and another $100,000 in equity isn't doing much for you. > If you desperately need money, you can move into something smaller, or more distant from the city, and cash out. Houses are much worse for this than e.g. stocks, because they're hard (and extremely inconvenient when you live in it) to sell in a hurry unless you want to a lose a lot of value. A lot of people also can't do this anymore because they got a fixed-rate mortgage before rates went up and now they can't move or they'll have to refinance at the higher rate which would eat most if not more than all of the difference in value. > If you do neither of these things, your children will inherit the value of your house. But then they need a place to live and then either can't sell it because they're living in it or get the money from selling it but pay that much again to acquire a different place to live. | | |
| ▲ | nikanj 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's a housing version of the national debt philosophy, where debt doesn't matter as long as you're outpacing it with growth. If last decade you had $25k HELOC on a 400k house and today you have $50k HELOC on a 800k house, your finances have clearly improved | | |
| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Except that you still can't sell the house or you won't have a place to live, so they've only improved on paper before you account for the opportunity cost of the higher imputed rent, i.e. the higher cost of living. Meanwhile you could have gotten the $50k HELOC against the $400k house, which was the only part doing anything that would actually affect your life. |
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| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | amluto an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I have to wonder to what extent that's actually true. It’s fairly easy to do the exercise in many real estate markets. For example, look at recent sales on your favorite real estate platform and find neighborhoods with very different property sizes but otherwise similar features. An easy one is Atherton vs the areas of Menlo Park directly adjacent to it. Effectively identical commutes, literally the same schools, etc. Menlo Park is quite down-zoned by any reasonable standard, but Atherton is very down-zoned and has huge lots. The houses in Atherton look more expensive, but they’re actually dramatically less valuable per unit property size. If you owned property in Atherton and wanted to increase your property value, the best thing you could do is to magically teleport your property a single block away out of Atherton. |
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| ▲ | roenxi 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I tend to agree. There might be a big window for someone motivated to get a course "how to maximise the value of your house purchase" into schools to cover all that. If people are going to be greedy and selfish at least they shouldn't be stupid about it, land and housing policy is one of the more consequential things society deals with. |
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| ▲ | nrhrjrjrjtntbt 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| It can go both ways. If a developer wants your house for the land you want big. But if you stay as a house and your neighbour becomes the high rise and you cant then you lose out. |
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| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's assuming there would only be one developer building one new building, which isn't really the idea here. | | |
| ▲ | nrhrjrjrjtntbt 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Not the idea but in reality without government initiated land forced sale you need 1. Someone(s) to agree to sell some land 2. Usually several adjacent plots to have enough space to build - get them all to sell 3. Planning permission 4. Zoning (but we assume that is fixed here) 5. Profit in the proposed development 6. The buyer So a lot is needed. Now game theoretically it may be better to be nimby. Also some people wont sell they are sentiment motivated. | | |
| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Someone(s) to agree to sell some land If you rezone some area, there are already going to be some number of units on the market to begin with. Then add developers willing to pay more than the current market price because it has become profitable and you get even more. > Usually several adjacent plots to have enough space to build - get them all to sell This is by no means necessary. You buy one plot of land, replace a single house with a 5-story condo containing 10-20 units. The whole idea is that you don't need a lot of land but rather taller buildings. > Planning permission This is the same premise as zoning. > Profit in the proposed development If you can buy a unit for e.g. $500,000 and build 20 units that each sell for $350,000, that's likely to be profitable. > The buyer The problem we're trying to solve is the huge amount of unmet demand for housing. If you ran out of buyers the problem is solved. | |
| ▲ | tuna74 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Neighbours can get together to sell their land together, then you can set minimum prices etc. Of course, it requires only one owner not to join for this to not work, but depending on their location they might experience a lower QoL due to construction and a changed neighbourhood if their neighbours sell. |
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